第五灵日常职责真空
讨论:F2 结尾给了 Elsa「feels at home」的概念,但没给可共情的北地日常;Morii 问这是否剥夺意愿的牺牲;arinur/JU 骂概念化归宿;FH 承认百万美元问题四年没回答,并庆幸删减片段 A Place of Our Own 没进正片。
聊天摘录
2025-02-09 23:02:18 Morii 从大局上说,艾莎这样是更快地到了一个稳定的第五灵形态,对整个自然都是有利无害的。但对安娜和艾莎本人来说,这真的问过她们自己的意愿了吗?就算这对大局有利,但真的要做出这种牺牲吗?艾莎的存在不仅仅是第五灵的载体,她同时也是一个活生生的人,这两个部分组成了完整的她,缺一不可,不是外界可以随意剥夺的
JU(转 arinur):“结局第五灵不仅没有获得充分的主体意志表达,也没有获取其日常操劳之实在形体,也没有被赋予一个生动的、可以从中攫取点滴日常意义的生活空间。我们知道她在这里feels at home,知道她在这里既实践了责任也享受了快乐、自由,但是我们无法对这个空间产生共情——空旷的、欠文化刻画的北地不同于充满文明细节的阿伦戴尔,阿塔霍兰的阴沉也不如被阳光照耀的艺术品般的冰宫;我们无法看到责任怎样实践、生活怎样快乐——不同于Anna作为女王的充实日常。结尾那个本该极具感染力的释然一笑,却只能让观众感到一丝空落落的安慰。这就是概念化的家,概念化的职责,概念化的归宿……”
2025-02-09 23:44:27 JU 如果有后面补充Elsa在北地的所作所为,让观众真切从画面上理解Elsa在北地是幸福的,那么就不存在“牺牲与否”的问题
FrozenHeart:That’s the million dollar question, a question that demands urgent answer yet was denied from us by the filmmakers, it’s been more than 4 years and we still have no clear portrayal of Elsa’s daily errands as the Fifth spirit… The only portrayals had been on her actions during emergencies but that would not require one’s full attention.
FH 对删减片段 A Place of Our Own、以及「没事干却离开阿村」会崩人设的展开,见 饮茶室QA/冰学独立理论与分析/FH:没事干却离开会崩人设。
续:肉体已死、意识靠魔法(2025-02-09)
同日稍晚 Morii 问「大概是艾莎发生了某个意外」,FH 给了一个把日常真空写成冲突的草案:人为开发遗留问题 → Elsa 推开 Anna 自己硬抗 → 普通人必死、她靠魔法活下来但肉体已死、意识只靠魔法维持 → 森林宣布她完全归四灵、不再是普通人 → Anna 不服,要把人的生命救回来,才是完整的第五灵。王二麻子插了生命之水 / 十二试炼玩笑。Morii:非常好的!
全文见 饮茶室QA/冰学独立理论与分析/FH:植物人假设。这和记忆雪人是同一类推演:第五灵若只剩灵、丢掉人,Anna 不会认。
短析
这和 饮茶室QA/冰学讨论/冰二的刻画缺失 是同一硬伤的另一面:那边缺的是 ITU 前探索欲望,这边缺的是结局后的生活空间。PN / All Is Found 短篇只补了应急,没补日常。Morii 的「意愿」问题和 FH「完整的人也是完整的灵」要对着看,不要合成一句「所以该回家」。
2024-07 Alice 转 reddit:第五灵用途
不是群原创,但是「第五灵没事干」的对照材料。原文+机翻都在。
2024-07-16 17:33:31 Alice 复制自reddit(谷歌机翻): 我经常听到人们抱怨艾莎作为第五个精灵现在没有真正的用途。但我是这样看待这个问题的,我希望迪士尼将来能考虑这个问题。
因此,我们有四个主要精灵(如果考虑到三个地球巨人,则为六个)。正如我们在《冰雪奇缘 2》中看到的那样,当人类与自然和平相处时,他们是温顺的,乐于助人。但是,当对任何事情感到不快时,他们就会变得暴躁,攻击他们路上的任何事物/任何人。他们就像动物和大自然本身一样,狂野而不可预测。但可以被驯服。
现在迷雾已经散去,其他人可以来了,谁能保证其他统治者不会像鲁尼尔德那样做。试着伤害诺桑德拉,也许会再次激怒灵魂。(可能的威胁:韦斯顿、南部群岛、瓦萨)。
这就是第五个灵魂的由来。艾莎是人类,所以她更了解事物,思考情况,并终其一生控制自己的情绪。她可以与人类谈判,如果灵魂生气了,她可以驯服它们,这样事情就不会失控。
我们可以看到,所有精灵都在某种程度上崇敬艾莎,她现在基本上是他们的领袖,而需要一位强大、天生的领袖来控制六种灾难性的自然力量。(如果艾莎能建造一道足够坚固的墙来拯救阿伦黛尔免遭洪水侵袭,她就能对付土巨人了)。
此外,尽管所有冰冻书籍都值得怀疑,但《危险的秘密》揭示了多个 Northundra 部落,自从迷雾降临以来,他们可能就没有与 Yelena 的部落联系过。他们可能需要 Elsa 帮助他们重新建立联系。
此外,导演曾说过,艾莎的角色是阿托哈兰的记忆守护者。直到现在,诺森德拉人还不确定这是否真实。凭借艾莎的力量,她可以帮助人们穿越冰冷的冰川并向他们展示记忆。甚至可能(现在她已经在那里待了一段时间)用她的魔法在人们“溺水”之前拯救他们。
2024-07-16 17:34:33 Alice I keep hearing people complain that Elsa has no real purpose now as the fifth spirit. But here is how I look at it and I hope Disney thinks if this in the future.
So, we have the four main spirits (6 if you consider there are three earth giant). As we’ve seen in Frozen 2, when humans are at peace with nature they are docile and happy to help. But when displeased, by anything, they become volatile and attack anything/anyone in their path. They are like animals and nature itself, wild and unpredictable. But can be tamed.
And now that the mist is gone and other people can come, whose to say another ruler might not try to do what Runeard did. Try to hurt the Northundra and maybe enrage the spirits again. (Possible threats: Weselton, Southern Isles, Vassar).
That’s where the fifth spirit comes in. Elsa is human so she understands things better and thinks about situations as well as a life time of controlling her emotions. She can negotiate with humanity and tame the spirits if they get angry so things don’t escalate out of control.
As we can see the spirits all revere Elsa to a degree, she is essentially their leader now and it takes a strong, natural leader to control six disastrous forces of nature. (If Elsa can create a wall strong enough to save Arendelle from a flood she can handle the earth giants).
Also, as dubiously canon as all frozen books are, Dangerous Secrets reveals there are multiple Northundra tribes, which probably haven’t had contact with Yelena’s since the mist fell. They may need Elsa to help them reconnect.
Also, the directors once said Elsas role is a memory keeper in Ahtohallan. Which up until now the Northundra weren’t sure was real or not. With Elsas powers she can help people navigate the icy glacier and show them the memories. Maybe even (now that she’s been there a while) use her magic to save people before they “drown”.
2024-07-16 17:34:36 Alice 原文